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Poster:
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jamarose |
Date:
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July 08, 2010 06:32:45pm |
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Forum:
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GratefulDead
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Subject:
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no offense but |
Who the f*** is Sugaree? Any real, fictional, or totally-tripped-out stories would be greatly appreciated. I mean, "Please forget you knew my name" Well, we've all been there - I was just wondering
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Poster:
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tigerbolt |
Date:
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July 08, 2010 06:51:30pm |
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Forum:
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GratefulDead
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Subject:
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Re: no offense but |
From Hunter's liner notes for the re-issue of "Garcia" in the box set
"All Good Things":
"Sugaree was written soon after I moved from the Garcia household to
China Camp. People assume the idea was cadged from Elizabeth Cotten's
Sugaree, but, in fact, the song was originally titled 'Stingaree,'
which is a poisonous South Sea manta. The phrase 'just don't tell them
that you know me' was prompted by something said by an associate in my
pre-Dead days when my destitute circumstances found me fraternizing
with a gang of minor criminals. What he said, when departing, was:
'Hold your mud and don't mention my name.'
"Why change the title to 'Sugaree'? Just thought it sounded better
that way, made the addressee seem more hard-bitten to bear a
sugar-coated name. The song, as I imagined it, is addressed to a pimp.
And yes, I knew Libba's song, and did indeed borrow the new name from
her, suggested by the 'Shake it' refrain."
Interesting background. I did wonder if Hunter was pulling our leg:
"Stingaree" sounds so implausible (though it really is a manta ray - I
checked!). But I guess not.
http://www.well.com/conf/deadsongs.vue/topics/193/Sugaree-page01.html
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Poster:
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patkelleyPA |
Date:
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July 08, 2010 07:49:40pm |
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Forum:
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GratefulDead
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Subject:
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Re: no offense but |
I always thought it was a pimp addressing one of his hoes. I think it makes more sense that way. I wonder if Hunter misspoke.
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Poster:
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johnnyonthespot |
Date:
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July 09, 2010 12:00:21am |
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Forum:
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GratefulDead
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Subject:
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Re: no offense but |
i always thought it was a john ( no NOT me ) saying that.
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Poster:
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micah6vs8 |
Date:
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July 09, 2010 07:00:18am |
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Forum:
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GratefulDead
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Subject:
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Re: no offense but |
jots , come on . We are all friends here :0
Wasn't that a long time ago ? Let it go .
You'll feel better .
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Poster:
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johnnyonthespot |
Date:
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July 09, 2010 10:31:45am |
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Forum:
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GratefulDead
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Subject:
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Re: no offense but |
well I guess we've all payed for it one time or another ha!
I worked with a guy who's divorce was so bitter he actually roughly tallied up how much each time cost him
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Poster:
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robthewordsmith |
Date:
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July 09, 2010 10:36:43am |
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Forum:
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GratefulDead
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Subject:
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Re: no offense but |
John - thanks for the first real laugh I've had to today.
'he actually roughly tallied up how much each time cost him'
Priceless.
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Poster:
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johnnyonthespot |
Date:
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July 09, 2010 10:42:06am |
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Forum:
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GratefulDead
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Subject:
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Re: no offense but |
I know. Sad but true huh?
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Poster:
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SkyDawg |
Date:
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July 09, 2010 12:09:43am |
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Forum:
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GratefulDead
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Subject:
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Re: no offense but |
Was I born yesterday?
"Sugaree" is any woman (or man) who you hope won't rat you out and tell the cops your name when arrested..
"Please forget you knew my name my darling Sugaree."
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Poster:
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jamarose |
Date:
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July 09, 2010 05:10:40am |
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Forum:
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GratefulDead
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Subject:
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Re: no offense but |
yeah in the clear light of day I see what a dumb question. The funny thing is all these years I thought it was Khufu, not cool fool, and then the "jubilee" - I thought the song was sort of a plaintive plea for total anonymity.
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Poster:
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robthewordsmith |
Date:
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July 09, 2010 05:53:07am |
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Forum:
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GratefulDead
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Subject:
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Re: no offense but |
Khufu aka Cheops, Pharaoh of Ancient Egypt? I can see how that would have you scratching your head.
Damn these rock and roll singers with their lousy enunciation!
:-)
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Poster:
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jamarose |
Date:
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July 09, 2010 06:26:54pm |
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Forum:
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GratefulDead
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Subject:
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Re: no offense but |
Brother Smith - I think that may be how great fake religions and some scientific theories about the past may get started. I was thinking, who says "please forget you knew my name"? Someone who is, like, gratefully dead. And the origin of that name, and then I thought thank god the dead never did anything really stupid like try to play in front of the pyramids because I could probably triangulate that into something big.
About the song, with all the historical stuff on here today, the thing I think now is there may be two songs: the one Hunter wrote and the one Garcia sings and plays. But that is just a commonplace. There are two posts here right now: the one I am writing and the one you are reading.
But what happened last night is a long story, and a good one thing, I think, and I was aided by some well-paid consultants flown in specially (well, trucked in probably) from Chico, CA, but I realized that if I were ever to say those words - please forget you knew my name - I had an elaborate personal mythology about who my sugaree would be. And my post was sort of a fishing expedition to say if anyone else had similar stuff.
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Poster:
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ringolevio |
Date:
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July 09, 2010 05:10:48am |
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Forum:
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GratefulDead
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Subject:
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Re: no offense but |
Do you think the "my darling" is not sincere, then?
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Poster:
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robthewordsmith |
Date:
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July 09, 2010 05:55:49am |
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Forum:
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GratefulDead
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Subject:
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Re: no offense but |
Nine times out of ten as likely not. In art as in life.
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Poster:
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ringolevio |
Date:
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July 09, 2010 06:11:49am |
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Forum:
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GratefulDead
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Subject:
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Re: no offense but |
Gee, I am a sucker! It always sounded sincere to me. I guess she'd be a fool to expect him show up at the jubilee then.
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Poster:
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robthewordsmith |
Date:
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July 09, 2010 06:16:58am |
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Forum:
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GratefulDead
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Subject:
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Re: no offense but |
But there was also the possibility that that jubilee won't come ...
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Poster:
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ringolevio |
Date:
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July 09, 2010 06:35:20am |
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Forum:
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GratefulDead
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Subject:
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Re: no offense but |
A jubilee is every 50 years I think? Boy am I dumb!!
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Poster:
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robthewordsmith |
Date:
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July 09, 2010 07:25:10am |
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Forum:
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GratefulDead
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Subject:
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Re: no offense but |
A jubilee is the celebration of any special anniversary (so which anniversary is the protagonist of the song referring to?). A fiftieth anniversary is a golden jubilee.
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Poster:
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ringolevio |
Date:
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July 09, 2010 08:21:16am |
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Forum:
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GratefulDead
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Subject:
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Re: no offense but |
I'm pretty sure "50 years" is one definition, perhaps a secondary definition. In the Bible I think it refers to a period once every 50 years. In the song it clearly means "I'll see you in a long time = never," a point I have managed to miss in the five zillion times I've listened to Sugaree.
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Poster:
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robthewordsmith |
Date:
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July 09, 2010 08:29:09am |
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Forum:
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GratefulDead
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Subject:
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Re: no offense but |
In Jewish tradition a jubilee is 49 years (it's in Leviticus somewhere or other) and was basically about wiping the slate clean and making a fresh start. So, yes, I can see how that fits. Of course, not everyone is going to live that long so maybe if you're not so lucky the jubilee don't come. But in more common usage jubilee is used in the sense I gave of an anniversary celebration - silver jubilee 25 years, golden jubilee 50, diamond 60 and so on.
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Poster:
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ringolevio |
Date:
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July 09, 2010 09:00:48am |
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Forum:
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GratefulDead
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Subject:
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Re: no offense but |
Then there's the following line, "If that jubilee don't come ..." which always reminded me of the lullabye, "If that mockingbird don't sing ..." etc.
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Poster:
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ringolevio |
Date:
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July 09, 2010 09:27:22am |
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Forum:
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GratefulDead
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Subject:
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Re: no offense but |
Just one more day I find myself alive ... tomorrow maybe go beneath the ground ...
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Poster:
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snori |
Date:
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July 09, 2010 06:32:44am |
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Forum:
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GratefulDead
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Subject:
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Re: no offense but |
This is all disappointingly prosaic. I'd envisaged political retributions in the 'Terror' aftermath of the French Revolution. Tumbrils in street, tricoteuses at the foot of Mme Guillotine. Sugaree as the Scarlet Pimpernel's betrayed squeeze.
Totty for sale, cowardly kerbcrawlers - what a letdown.
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Poster:
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micah6vs8 |
Date:
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July 09, 2010 07:04:35am |
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Forum:
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GratefulDead
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Subject:
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Re: no offense but |
Sounds good to me snori . Don't give up the dream . Kinda La Boheme - ish ( it fits , just move time around a bit , what is 30 odd years anyways ).
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Poster:
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robthewordsmith |
Date:
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July 09, 2010 07:20:31am |
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Forum:
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GratefulDead
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Subject:
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Re: no offense but |
Ahh... but did you miss the hint earlier that it was actually all about dastardly deeds in ancient Egypt? Pharaonic mistaken identity and all. (I thought i was the Khufu...)
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Poster:
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snori |
Date:
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July 09, 2010 07:34:50am |
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Forum:
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GratefulDead
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Subject:
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Re: no offense but |
Yes, and that would also have been a Romance. This grubby view is all a long way from the empowered Lady with a Fan who is holding on for a Hero (sorry, wrong song) and demands her lover undergo 'uncertain pains of Hell' rather than do a runner on her.
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Poster:
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robthewordsmith |
Date:
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July 09, 2010 07:56:11am |
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Forum:
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GratefulDead
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Subject:
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Re: no offense but |
Seriously I think Sugaree is under sentence of death.
When they come to take you down
When they bring that wagon round
When they come to call on you
and drag your poor body down
sounds pretty much to me like someone being cut down from the gallows.
One last voice is calling you
and I guess it's time you go
What's the last voice? The one that calls you to meet your maker?
The protagonist, fearful of punishment for unknown deeds done doesn't want Sugaree dying with his name on her lips. The jubilee is most likely not coming and if he gets taken on the run he might meet Sugaree agsin - but not in this life.
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Poster:
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snori |
Date:
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July 09, 2010 08:02:55am |
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Forum:
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GratefulDead
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Subject:
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Re: no offense but |
I'll go along with that. After all prostitution isn't a capital offense (unless you're in Iran).
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Poster:
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robthewordsmith |
Date:
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July 09, 2010 08:08:25am |
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Forum:
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GratefulDead
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Subject:
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Re: no offense but |
Yes. That's the kind of getting stoned that none of us would like to contemplate.
To be honest I just can't read a prostitution angle into the song at all. Just don't see it however I look at it.
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Poster:
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ringolevio |
Date:
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July 09, 2010 09:32:40am |
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Forum:
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GratefulDead
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Subject:
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Re: no offense but |
I agree except that's what Hunter actually said, right? Maybe he was trying to throw us off ...
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Poster:
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robthewordsmith |
Date:
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July 09, 2010 09:39:30am |
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Forum:
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GratefulDead
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Subject:
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Re: no offense but |
He did say that the song was addressed to a pimp (NOT a prostitute). Sugaree is a pimp? Seriously show me where in the song that's explicit.
Actually, thinking about it, if you were worried about losing your reputation if people found out you were one of Sugaree's girls, then yes, I guess it does fit. Kind of. I'm not convinced though.
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Poster:
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ringolevio |
Date:
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July 09, 2010 09:51:35am |
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Forum:
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GratefulDead
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Subject:
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Re: no offense but |
:)
No I basically agree with you it is not explicit, and I really can't make all these pieces fit ...
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Poster:
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dead-head_Monte |
Date:
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July 09, 2010 09:27:13am |
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Forum:
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GratefulDead
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Subject:
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Re: no offense but |
It looks like Rob has this Sugaree thing all sewn up tight for me. Thank you for sharing these points. I love these lyrics. Same with Dark Star. I'm not at all a "lyrics guy." I'm in stitches right now.
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Poster:
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robthewordsmith |
Date:
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July 09, 2010 10:04:23am |
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Forum:
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GratefulDead
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Subject:
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Re: taper's tales |
Hi Monte - been meaning to ask you this for some time. Is there anywhere you've gathered together all your taper's tales into one place? I looked on your website but couldn't find everything there. I reckon you have a story to tell!
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Poster:
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dead-head_Monte |
Date:
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July 09, 2010 11:21:23am |
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Forum:
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GratefulDead
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Subject:
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Re: taper's tales |
I'm telling my Taper stories in bits and pieces on the Internet, in 2 places: The Archive, and The Festivarian Forum.
On the Archive, I'm beginning to expand into this area, as a psuedo digital archivist. I'm combining web authoring skills, my tapes, pictures, YouTube clips, and historical first-hand testimony of my observations and experiences. I have been upgrading my Items on The Archive, and linking to a few postings by other Forumites:
So, the answer to your question is, Yes! It's taken me over 2 years to get to this point. I've included biographical excerpts of many of the bands and artists that I taped. This short list has my best examples:
GD - my taping story for June 9 and June 10, 1973Be sure to browse the NOTES section for these items:
Take It Easy Ranch Festival - my taping story - 1974-July-20 - Norman Blake, Vassar Clements, and Josh Graves are profiled.
Hillbilly Jazz - in Nashville, with Vassar Clements - April 4 and 5, 1975 - Doug Jernigan on pedal steel. Millie Clements' (Vassar's wife) story is copied and pasted here.
Bluegrass Alliance on September 23, 1975 - Vince Gill and myself were roommates. I was soundman. Their album is explained.
Boone Creek - March 1976 - Ricky Skaggs, Jerry Douglas, Vince Gill. I put the story here, and I added notes about the PA systems for famous Bluegrass bands.
15-year-old Mark O'Connor - Oct 1976 - his story is explained here
list of my tapes on The Archive - everything listed from June 9, 1973, are my tapes I've released so far.
Festivarian postings - my stories:
Monte comments on Newgrass historyBluegrass Alliance - Newgrass Revival history dating back to 1969
from my website - I expect to dump my website later on, and move this over to The Archive:
Monte Barry technical profile - some pretty interesting background material
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Poster:
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robthewordsmith |
Date:
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July 09, 2010 11:25:58am |
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Forum:
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GratefulDead
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Subject:
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Re: taper's tales |
Monte - thank you for all those links! If I can help in any way, purely on the putting the words together side, don't hesitate to get in touch.
robthewordsmithATyahooDOTcoDOTuk
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Poster:
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ringolevio |
Date:
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July 09, 2010 09:29:30am |
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Forum:
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GratefulDead
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Subject:
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Re: no offense but |
Now that part always made me think of the plague (Black Death) - the part about the wagon coming round to collect the bodies. But "take you down" also sounds like a reference to Christ. It doesn't quite fit together. If they're taking down a dead body, that person isn't going to be naming names, right?
reading way too much into this I'm sure.
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Poster:
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buscameby |
Date:
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July 09, 2010 09:45:40am |
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Forum:
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GratefulDead
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Subject:
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Re: no offense but |
I have to agree with the plague reference for my imagery.
Just can't help hear the Python boys "bring out yer Dead bring out yer Dead"
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Poster:
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ringolevio |
Date:
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July 09, 2010 09:54:22am |
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Forum:
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GratefulDead
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Subject:
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Re: no offense but |
LOL, yes the Monty Python sketch is exactly what I was picturing! The other image I have of the plague is from Daniel Defoe's Journal of the Plague Year (which is a really great read, btw, if you like reading about extremely morbid topics) and the images are pretty similar. Throwing bodies on a wagon suggests a mass burial, which suggests either a catastrophe such as an epidemic or else the burial of criminals who aren't thought to deserve proper rites.
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Poster:
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robthewordsmith |
Date:
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July 09, 2010 09:59:07am |
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Forum:
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GratefulDead
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Subject:
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Re: no offense but |
This plague idea is complete non starter, about as likely as the poisonous manta ray. The only body, so far as we know, is Sugaree's. Why is it being taken down, not simply picked up? If this were a plague song the imagery would be entirely other than it is here. It's a doomed relationship song.
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Poster:
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ringolevio |
Date:
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July 09, 2010 10:11:27am |
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Forum:
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GratefulDead
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Subject:
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Re: no offense but |
Maybe I'm thrown off by the wagon. The wagon to me suggests a mass burial, or at least an ignoble burial. But maybe it's just means a hearse. At any rate the "final taxi ride" (reckless Eric?)
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Poster:
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robthewordsmith |
Date:
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July 09, 2010 10:22:10am |
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Forum:
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GratefulDead
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Subject:
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Re: no offense but |
I was staying at the Marriott
With Jesus and John Wayne
I was waiting for a chariot
They were waiting for a train
The sky was full of carrion
"I'll take the mazuma"
Said Jesus to Marion
"That's the 3:10 to Yuma
My ride's here..."
The Houston sky was changeless
We galloped through bluebonnets
I was wrestling with an angel
You were working on a sonnet
You said, "I believe the seraphim
Will gather up my pinto
And carry us away, Jim
Across the San Jacinto
My ride's here..."
Shelley and Keats were out in the street
And even Lord Byron was leaving for Greece
While back at the Hilton, last but not least
Milton was holding his sides
Saying, "You bravos had better be
ready to fight
Or we'll never get out of East Texas tonight
The trail is long and the river is wide
And my ride's here"
I was staying at the Weston
I was playing to a draw
When in walked Charlton Heston
With the Tablets of the Law
He said, "It's still the Greatest Story"
I said, "Man, I'd like to stay
But I'm bound for glory
I'm on my way
My ride's here..."
Now THAT's a 'last ride' song!
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Poster:
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spacedface |
Date:
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July 10, 2010 12:28:21am |
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Forum:
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GratefulDead
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Subject:
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Re: no offense but |
Everyone's body is taken down into the ground, or water or fire if they want to cut to the chase.
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Poster:
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buscameby |
Date:
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July 09, 2010 10:17:53am |
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Forum:
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GratefulDead
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Subject:
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Re: no offense but |
Its the wagon reference to me also, I know its not a plague song but the imagery was medieval to me.
No accounting why some brains are wired the way they are. I guess I read to much Dark Ages literature at my Jesuit HS-lol.
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Poster:
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deadpolitics |
Date:
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July 09, 2010 10:18:10am |
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Forum:
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GratefulDead
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Subject:
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Re: no offense but |
You all have got me thinking!
1st verse: The qualifier of "when" in the first verse implies that his body has not yet been taken down.Perhaps the call girl is talking about her pimp being taken away in a paddy wagon. Although she works for him, she expresses sympathy for him ("your poor body") in case he ever gets busted.
chorus: Though she feels bad for him, there ain't no way she's going down with his boat if he ever gets in trouble.
2nd verse: Though her pimp always acts so cool calm and in control when he is out in public, at the end of the day he is stressing. I mean, shit, it's hard to relax when you're livelihood is based in illegal activity.
3rd verse: Although the pimp is successful as far as pimps go, he still has to work hard and be out on the street with his girls rain or shine. I'm not really sure what to make of the one last voice... maybe its the last call of the night and the pimp has to keep working even though he is enjoying his time hanging out with his favorite girl?
4th verse: The girl says goodbye to her pimp and expresses hope that they will see each other again when they are both in a better place a long time from now. If they never make it to that better place, well they just might run into each other as they keep living their outlaw lives.
Overall, it seems as if the pimp and prostitute have a pretty good working relationship... maybe there's even some love/attraction between them that never gets to blossom because of the business they are in. There is a sense of finality (I guess it's time you go) like their relationship is coming to an end but they are not about to stay in touch. Is it meant to be? Well, well, well, you can never tell.
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Poster:
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spacedface |
Date:
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July 10, 2010 12:30:37am |
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Forum:
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GratefulDead
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Subject:
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Re: no offense but |
There's no real indication of plagues or prostitutes. It seems to be more general, as in a death process like physical death which we all experience. Consider yourself already among the dead for best results.
Though the wagon could be run by patties...
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Poster:
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ringolevio |
Date:
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July 10, 2010 05:33:29am |
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Forum:
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GratefulDead
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Subject:
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Re: no offense but |
There's no explicit reference to prostitution in the song, but that's what Hunter said. The plague thing I agree is a stretch.
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Poster:
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spacedface |
Date:
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July 10, 2010 09:14:12am |
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Forum:
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GratefulDead
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Subject:
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Re: no offense but |
ah, "The song, as I imagined it, is addressed to a pimp."
For some reason I never thought of jelly jelly listening to Sugaree.
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Poster:
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micah6vs8 |
Date:
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July 09, 2010 09:41:58am |
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Forum:
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GratefulDead
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Subject:
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Re: no offense but |
I have always thought is was a song about death , and dying - in an unhappy place .
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Poster:
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robthewordsmith |
Date:
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July 09, 2010 09:46:08am |
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Forum:
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GratefulDead
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Subject:
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Re: no offense but |
It's definitely the kind of subject matter that Hunter has a distinguished track record in. Sugaree was probably best buddies with Jack Straw.
:-)
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Poster:
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jerrys beard |
Date:
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July 09, 2010 01:10:32pm |
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Forum:
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GratefulDead
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Subject:
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Re: no offense but |
Yes! As noted in one of the Grateful Dead comix that I used to collect and we all know are the definitive source of all lyrical interpretations it shows a body being cut down from the gallows and loaded into a wagon. So there!
No...I don't have any references, like dates or numbers or anything like that. Just my memory...crap...maybe somebody else remembers it.
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Poster:
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robthewordsmith |
Date:
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July 09, 2010 01:40:35pm |
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Forum:
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GratefulDead
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Subject:
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Re: no offense but |
Hah! My new best buddy! I knew I wasn't just inventing all this stuff...
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Poster:
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jerrys beard |
Date:
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July 09, 2010 02:17:49pm |
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Forum:
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GratefulDead
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Subject:
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Re: no offense but |
Woo hoo! But will Dire be jealous?
I have a mental image of him seeking comfort in the hooves of a bloated bovine and it ain't pretty!
Anyone have an ice pick lying around?
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Poster:
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robthewordsmith |
Date:
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July 09, 2010 02:40:44pm |
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Forum:
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GratefulDead
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Subject:
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Re: no offense but |
Brother, all I can say is, if you're seeking comfort in the hooves you might just be setting your sights a little low...
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Poster:
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jerrys beard |
Date:
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July 09, 2010 02:52:00pm |
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Forum:
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GratefulDead
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Subject:
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Re: no offense but |
Point taken...
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Poster:
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spacedface |
Date:
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July 09, 2010 11:17:13pm |
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Forum:
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GratefulDead
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Subject:
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Re: no offense but |
>>What's the last voice? The one that calls you to meet your maker?>>
That rare & different tune, come crying like the wind.
>>>The protagonist, fearful of punishment for unknown deeds done doesn't want Sugaree dying with his name on her lips. The jubilee is most likely not coming and if he gets taken on the run he might meet Sugaree agsin - but not in this life. >>>
Or it could be like you're not invited to the Jubilee, the slate is not wiped clean and you run for refuge and are born again in a lower world. Sugaree don't let that deal go down, or that pretty lady falls alone & ain't got no friend. Can't even patch the bones, just duck into a bardo and pray for better weather while under eternity nervous from the fall. Don't want at be treated this a way, shackled by chains of illusion.
If there's a "break up" I know that you'll think of ME only. It's alright bra, but in your steps alone you'll have to decide for yourself if you'll be thinking how you served somebody --- I, me, silver mine (all that fancy paints as fair) or the other one.
Judge decreed it. Your love for Me has got to be real. Never could reach, it just slips away, but try a little bit harder.
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Poster:
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bar37 |
Date:
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July 09, 2010 12:59:09am |
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Forum:
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GratefulDead
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Subject:
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Re: no offense but |
How could that even be taken with offense unless all of the posters in this forum are a bunch of wet blankets
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Poster:
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micah6vs8 |
Date:
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July 09, 2010 09:44:40am |
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Forum:
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GratefulDead
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Subject:
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Re: no offense but |
We are all wet blankets . How do you think we cultivate that hippie smell . Nothing comes easy , ya' know .
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